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An Excerpt From The Yahoo Group: India-Force
Yahoo supports a wide diversity of "discussion groups," of which one is called the "India-Force" group. It can be found on the web HERE.
The announced purpose of this group is as follows:
Is it on Paper??____________________A Forefront Voluntary Social Action Group set up in 2001,is devoted to the cause of Civil Liberties.<<<.
it focusses on: >>Quality of life, Legal Reforms, Consumer Rights,Good Governance, Ethics and Environmental issues<<<.
We believe in collaboration and not confrontation, to improve things through voice of people. Collective power of People & Self Help is considered best tool for bringing about changes, in Democracy.
The Forum provides a platform to people to bring around changes, by collective power and raising awareness on issues.Members freely chat on Yahoo Forum "chat" and exchange views to crystallize thoughts and actions. In fact the Forum has periodical "Teleconference" plans through e-group facilities.
It is also an Elite Club of friendship and intellectual platform for people in India and around the world ,who care about Indian affairs.
We have membership all over the world.
We aim, think and act globally.
The Forum also focuses on Personality Development and Self Employment opportunities for the members and Youth.
It attempts to solve grievances of members and through the members, of others by suitable direct intervention with the concerned Authorities.
The Forum conducts Community development programs, workshops and interactive sessions. We look for Area coordinators at strategic locations in India and overseas(UK,US,Canada,UAE,Australia & S. Africa) where sizeable Indian population and Foreigners interested in Indian affairs live.
Members should be at least High School, active in social life and have strong belief in People Power.
Forum invites people in age group 20 to 60.Forum encourages women to take active part.
Prof R K Gupta
BE Hons, MBA, FIE
Honorary President
At :>Chandigarh,Delhi,Jodhpur,Jalandhar,Mumbai & Ottawa (Right to grant membership r
A very good friend of mine, Dr. Ayyangar, in India, is a Member of this MoralGroup Discussion Forum ( www.moralgroup.com) and has responded to a posting in the "India-Force" group. I have my own comments on this and will post those HERE.
The original posting in the Yahoo Group is, itself, quite interesting when you realize that it comes from an Indian perspective. It is further interesting when you realize that India has a very large number of Muslims amongst its people, and that terrorists seem, mostly, to have radical Muslim connections. The Indian perspective on terrorism, then, should be of considerable interest to the rest of the world.
The response by my friend comes from an Indian perspective also, but obviously a different, while still Indian, perspective.
Finally, I have posted my own comments on my friend's comments, and posted those within this MoralGroup discussion forum.
I invite you to read and respond as you wish.
The original posting at India-Force Discussion Group.
The roots of terrorism are many and diverse some of
them which have
been identified are
1.State suppression of aspirations of a people or group of people by
force.
2.Psychological need of terrorists to advertise and justify their
(assumed) just causes
3.Religious fundamentalism growing the world over
4.Communication gap between national governments and regional groups
5.Most commonly it has been seen that terrorism is in Muslim
dominated areas and it appears that the problem has arisen because of
ideological differences between Muslims and other religions, mainly
Christianity led by US. But it is always not so. For example Sinhalese vs.
Tamilians in Srilanka.
I don't think power of gun could ever silence terrorism permanently
because it is always run in name of religious factions.
6.Growing economic disparities and political interference.
We would like the members to kindly contribute the reasons. We are
planning to prepare a detailed paper on this and submit to
intelligentsia for debate and taking up with national governments.
Members are requested to use moderate language while dui cussing the
issue as we are a forum of intellectuals and not mercenaries and our
aim is to convince and not confront anyone.
Dr. Ayyangar's response could well have been posted on THIS web, but it was made in response to another web, so was first published there. The response to the above, from my good friend in India, is as follows:
Dr. Ayyangar's Response
Dear Friends,
her
language -- and hence will not work.Karl Loren's comments on this exchange are found in THIS discussion forum HERE.
References From Links Above:
Atmanam sarvato rakset tato dharmah. Dharma. This dharma. Dharma means religion. Actually, "religion" is not exact equivalent of the word dharma. Dharma, as I have explained several times, you know... Dharma dhr-dhatu. Dharma means you exist by some natural symptom. That is called dharma.
Everyone has got some natural symptom. That is dharma. According to Sanskrit meaning, that is dharma. Just like this light is a substance. What is his dharma, religion? To give light, to illuminate. So without illumination, there is no meaning of light.
Similarly, your dharma, what is your religion? Your religion is to serve Krsna. That is your religion. Now you serve in a different way according to time, circumstances, country. That is a different thing. But your religion is to serve God. That is your religion. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu immediately gives you the definition of religion, or your occupation, natural duty, natural function. Always mind that. Just like the light's natural function is to give illumination. Prakasa. Similarly, your natural function is to serve Krsna. That's all. You have no other business.
That is dharma. No other business. When we understand this convincingly, then we are situated in our religion.
Just like Krsna said. In the beginning of Bhagavad-gita He says, dharma-samsthapanarthaya.
Just to reestablish religion. Dharma-samsthapanarthaya.
People forget. Nature's, material nature's function is that, to put you into illusion always. So our forgetfulness is also another illusion. We forget our relationship with God, or Krsna. Then adharma. That is... Instead of becoming servant of Krsna, I become servant of so many things. I become servant of my family, servant of my country, society, humanity, cats, dogs, so many things. Servant I remain, but I become servant of so many things. (source)
OH Dhanvantari, your body is shining like sun and you are destroying the enemies of trees like the dessert drying the trees. You are present in the form of sparkles in moon which is full of amrutha (divine drink). In different manvantara (different yugas) like svayabhuva you have manifested in different forms like kapila, yagna etc. For all medicines you are the resource (You are protecting all medicines). In all wars you have killed (destroyed) all bad people thus creating miseries to the mother 'dhanu' (whose heart is full of miseries) (one who destroys (kills) bad people and thus creating miseries to the mothers) and you are being called 'dushta shikshaka' (one who gives torments to bad people). (source)
Always devoted to his wedded spouse, conducting himself after the manner of the good, with his senses under subjugation, and full of faith, one should in this world perform the five sacrifices. He who eats what remains after feeding deities and guests, who is devoted to the observance of Vedic rites, who duly performs according to his means sacrifices and gifts, who is not unduly active with his hands and feet, who is not unduly active with his eye, who is devoted to penances, who is not unduly active with his speech and limits, comes under the category of Sishta or the good. One should always bear the sacred thread, wear white (clean) clothes, observe pure vows, and should always associate with good men, making gifts and practising self-restraint. One should subjugate one’s lust and stomach, practise universal compassion, and be characterised by behaviour that befits the good. One should bear a bamboo stick, and a water pot filled with water. (source)
Sanskrit Verses
NOTE: The entire contents of the Bhagavat gita are presented here in 2 formats (Acrobat & PostScript). Please excuse any errors that might be in the text and mail errata to rmullick@iname.com. Thanks to Ms. Shashi Sathaye (shashi@pop.uky.edu) and Dr. S. Mitra (Professor, Dept. of Sociology, Emory University, Atlanta), an updated and corrected version (2.0) of these files is now available. I would like to express my sincere thanks to both for their patience and time.
Rakesh Mullick
rmullick@mail.com
My good friend, Dr. Ayyangar, from India, often posts to this forum. He is also featured in various newspapers within India and here he has posted his comments about terrorism in a Yahoo Discussion Group.
He kindly sent me a copy and I am pleased to respond.
First, to set the stage, I agree with President Bush that the world is now in a new international war -- whether it is called WW III or not.
Here is a news commentator:
The major problem we have in this war is that there are no "fronts" where soldiers of all kinds can fight "eyeball-to-eyeball." Islamic terrorists are in many different countries and are working, independently of each other, taking their direction from the top Islamic mullahs. Our enemy is the Islamic extremist who thinks anybody who doesn't believe the way he does is the enemy and is "fair game" to be murdered "in the name of Allah." One thread that goes through all the terrorist activity in the world (with the possible exception of that in Ireland) is Islam. More particularly, Wahabe Islam. The Wahabe sect of Islam is the most "far out there" bunch there is -- and their major base of operations is Saudi Arabia, where Wahabeism is the "national religion." (source)
This is clearly understood by many. What is NOT understood is the Nature of Terrorists. In this, Dr. Ayyangar has hit the nail on the head.
Terrorism is a criminal act. Criminals never have "reasons" but they always everywhere have only "justifications."
A "reason" by implication has "rationality" ingrained in it as the essential element. No logic whatsoever is rational for terrorism as it is patently "a threat to survival" of the civil society as a whole. (Ayyangar Source)
I agree with Dr. Ayyangar.
I also agree with his "solution" although I think his solution is incomplete.
His solution?
There is only one way to tackle and stop terrorism -- "enhanced counter terrorism" -- that is to subject the terrorists and their families to the same, or, very much more intensity of pain & agony they cause to the innocent public by their actions. I include their families because they have failed in their social duty & responsibility to shape their children into rational human beings and hence will have to pay the price. No other humane method can ever be understood by the terrorists --- as they have learnt no other language -- and hence will not work.It is a gross failure on the part of the society to think that "human rights" will have to be followed & applied while dealing with the terrorists. This is the most imprudent way, as this equates good & bad for identical treatment, instead of differentiating. (Ayyangar Source)
I agree with Dr. Ayyangar's solution, in part, and further validate is as a policy followed by the English Colonial Government in India. Some of the people in India, during Colonial rule, were, also, dealing with a "foe" (the British forces) that was so much stronger than they that they had to resort to terrorist methods. We don't much hear of those years, in India, because the British Rulers followed a very strict policy they had started in their home lands.
So what is hue and cry? I tracked it down to the statute of Winchester (1285) or even earlier. During Anglo-Saxon (500 to 1066 AD) times, communities were divided into groups of 10 families. Each group was called a tything and was headed by a “tythingman”. Each member of a tything was responsible for the collective good behaviour of the others in the group.
So if a member of a tything committed a crime, others had to catch the offender and bring him (or her) to court. Failure to do so resulted in a collective fine. And there was a responsibility of “hue and cry” if anyone actually witnessed a crime being committed. The “hue” part meant things like sounding horns. The “cry” part was verbal shouts. When a hue and cry was raised, everyone between the ages of 12 and 60 had to join in the chase to catch the criminal. The Normans (1066 to 1485 AD) retained this idea and the statute of Winchester was England’s first Police Act. Other than hue and cry, inhabitants of a region were also responsible for crimes committed within that region. (source)
So, there is precedent in political history for causing harm to the FAMILY of a terrorist. This would certainly be the opposite of the incentive, even now being paid from Saudi Arabia, and others, to REWARD the family of a suicide bomber.
Next on the list was Iraq, where Saddam Hussein was actively helping them [terrorists] as well, as the intelligence will ultimately prove, whenever we are able to release it to the public. He did openly announce that he was going to give $25,000 (a "King's Ransom" to the poverty-stricken Arabs) to the family of each person who blew him/herself up and killed Israelis in Israel (Yes, Israel. The Palestinian terrorists are also Muslim). (Source)
This old English policy, indeed, would be visiting upon a terrorist more harm than his own death -- which he has already offered in exchange for martyrdom. If he thought that his wife and children would all be killed, because HE decided to kill himself, well he might have second thoughts. If killing the wife and children were not enough, obviously we could go further -- and actually get what we now have -- we visit harm on those in the vicinity of some suspected INDIVIDUAL terrorist leader.
But, it would largely dry up the inventory of willing suicides to know that their death would bring death to their loved ones.
When and as the terrorist has NO loved ones, he might be beyond even this reach, but it would pretty much handle much of the larger problem of suicide bombers.
I think it would be morally better to kill the bomber's wife than some child who accidentally was standing near the target of an Israeli assassination.
Oh, true, we could not always find the family, but let's get the "easy ones" first, and then go looking!
Is this a hard-nosed attitude? Yes indeed. I think it is also moral because it satisfies the compelling moral criteria of "the greatest good for the greatest number."
The final note here is that Dr. Ayyangar has NOT mentioned the sine qua non of victory in war. The terrible truth is that force, in sufficient quantity, will quell any riot or group of terrorists. But, in the long term such force has always caused harm to the victors.
The only way to win true victory is to use force AND intelligence. Neither one, by itself, brings any lasting peace. This planet has never properly applied both -- hence this planet has not had peace in our times.
India has an early history of pacifism. Fortunately more and more Indians are beginning to see the need for applied force. I can only hope that India will further see the need of using intelligence to remove the original source of the criminal behavior.
For that I think there is a simple solution -- the level of morality on this planet stinks. We went through eight years of the worst possible role model of morality in the person of Bill Clinton.
That immorality has become evident in much of America; look at the scandals on Wall Street and the drug scene in schools. That is why THIS discussion forum can make a difference in the world -- it needs more people to read, to participate and help spread the common sense code of morals excerpted on the web site, at www.happinessonline.org .
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